porridge with sugar

There's a surprisingly bad, Daily Mail-sque photo article at FP on Norway's prisons, full of pictures of inmates enjoying themselves in healthy activities rather than being beaten, raped, or forced to shit in a bucket like criminals deserve.

Two statistics.

Norway's incarceration rate: 66 per 100,000 inhabitants. US incarceration rate: 738 per 100,000 inhabitants.

Recidivism rate after prison in Norway: between 40 and 45 percent. In US, approximately 67 percent. (And the Norwegian figures were for life, I believe; the US ones are just for "within 3 years of release.")

PS - Welcome Daily Dish readers!  I fixed the hanging bracket just for you.

Comments

[CMcM]

A Norwegian taxi driver writes:
"..wall hanging flat screen TVs are too good for 'em"

[Cian]

I read some research on Norwegian prisons a few years back. It seems to work pretty well, but the thing that struck me at the time was that the prisoners didn't like being in jail. They still saw themselves as being deprived of their freedom, and forced to operate by somebody else's rules. It wasn't something they'd choose to do.

The comments on that FP article are a mixed bag. Some sanity, some "If you saw the animals we have to do deal with, blah, blah". Which is a short way from saying that Norwegians are just better people than Americans. Perhaps they are, but I doubt that's what the writer meant to say.

[Cian]

Incidentally, unless things have changed considerably, the prison in those pictures is intended for prisoners who are considered to have worked hard at reforming themselves. Its partly a reward, and partly the end of a process to rehabilitate them.

Their standard prisons are better than ours, and certainly better than the hell-holes in the USA. They're still prison though.

[Charlie W]

"If you saw the animals we have to do deal with, blah, blah"

Well, conservatives need an underclass in order to maintain their own sense of self-respect. Building a prison population (and a prison-feeder population) is therefore an important project in its own right, although it's probably fair to concede that your average right-winger doesn't explicitly hold such a purpose in mind.

[Charlie W]

Incidentally, I think it would be apposite if ABB were made to take knitting classes in perpetuity. Maybe also some awareness training. Implacably sensitive, caring custody around the clock. Extra cocoa on request. Of course the Norwegians will probably be normal about it and he'll get ordinary solitary somewhere.

[JamesP]

Makes me think of the end of MIRACLEMAN, where Charles Manson leads children's therapy groups. (Grant Morrison in SUPERGODS seems to think this is unabashed fantasy, but there's a strongly sinister element to it, probably on purpose, this being Moore)

[JamesP]

"fantasy" there should be "wish-fulfillment," sorry

[Charlie W]

There'd be no parole, in case you were wondering. Nor even the prospect. It'd be habilitation, not rehabilitation. 'Anders, we must equip you to live well in your new life, and an understanding of feminism is very, very important ...'

[Richard J]

ObvSF reference: Iain M Banks' Surface Detail. (I assume. I'm only about a third of the way through at the moment.)

[skidmarx]

@Charlie W - if he's a continuing threat, then society may need protecting, but automatic lifetime punishment in a revenge fantasy; that's possibly diminishing us all.

Here is a story about appropriate incarceration, though you do have to look a bit for "the boy calmly said in front of cameras that he had participated in four killings while drugged and under threat."

[Cian]

I imagine the Norwegians have a system for keeping the insane in prison. Most countries do.

[Charlie W]

if he's a continuing threat, then society may need protecting

Gosh, well Breivik is society, isn't he? Part of it, anyway. And it seems as though part of his aim is provocation. So, seriously, what will count as an adequate response? One option is to count the guy as crazy, and therefore to be ignored, and not answered. But I think the likely response will be not that but a reassertion of norms of tolerance, and its limits, of the sort which ABB made out to despise. And the aim of that really is to crush and annihilate; even so, I don't think you can quite call it revenge.

Also, I tend to think that if you took the revenge fantasies out of Iain Banks's novels, he'd have no sales.

[Cian]

I don't think you can quite call it revenge

No its worse. Its using the excuse of somebody's crime to engage in a form of torture. Its what passes for thinking in discussions of the prison complex here, and particularly, the US.

I tend to skip the revenge fantasies in Banks' novels, if you're referring to specific moments. Otherwise not sure I get what you mean.

[Charlie W]

OK, so prison should look like what? It should be arranged so as to maximally satisfy the wants of each prisoner consistent with the maximal satisfaction of the wants of every other prisoner? Maybe so. Perhaps solitary for every inmate will do that. But if not, then prison will have to be an environment where social norms apply. If you are a prisoner who wishes to violently overturn such norms, does your captivity then amount to torture?

Or to put things a little differently: if ABB wanted to escape from Norway by changing it, then he failed horribly; as a consequence, he'll get more Norway. Lots of it.

[Cian]

Its about two things. One to punish somebody for transgressing norms s.t. hopefully they won't do it again and others will think twice about it, if they can be punished humanely (not everyone can).

Secondly its about removing them from society until they can (margin of error, blah, blah - obviously mistakes will be made) be returned to society.

Deliberately pushing the buttons of an insane person is neither of those things. Just because it doesn't involve anal rape, don't make any revenge fantasy right. Particularly when you weren't the one harmed by his actions.

[dsquared]

The guy is crazy like Hitler - as in, sane in the sense that he knows what he's doing and he makes plans and carries them out, but a race-obsessed fanatic with a nasty childhood and delusions of grandeur. He actually could be helped (subject to a proper diagnosis by actual psychologists) by treatment, including drugs if necessary but also surely involving some sort of counselling and therapy, and since that counselling and therapy is going to have the end of teaching him not to be scared and hateful of women and people unlike himself, it's going to end up looking a lot like the "revenge fantasy".

[Cian]

Well yeah, but the revenge fantasy would be unlikely to work for the simple reason you're not doing it to make him better.

I'm sure some of the stuff carried out at Guantanemo could, managed differently, genuinely help people. But you can also drive people insane.

[Charlie W]

It occurs to me - OK I'm a bit slow on some points - that prison is an environment where guilting people - something normally frowned upon as manipulative behaviour - is actually encouraged.

[Chris Williams]

Finland (which still locks up a very large number of adults per capita) only had about 5 juveniles in prison, when someone I know checked. It has, though, several hundred juveniles in secure psychiatric units.

[Richard J]

It has, though, several hundred juveniles in secure psychiatric units.

To channel D^2 for a mo, I suspect that's not evidence of disguised criminality, more evidence that Finland is either cold and dark, or hot and midge-ridden. Like Fort William but with vodka.

[CMcM]

At this point, I think it very hard to venture the view that Breivik won't, in practice, be incarcerated for life. Even in Norway there's a chance he will killed in prison. But, if he's not, the question arises as to who, even 21 years from now, is going to sit on the panel which makes the decision 'this man is sufficiently rehabilitated to rejoin Norwegian society'? He has already entered the national psyche in the most impossibly hurtful way, after all. & I can't see any other country offering to resettle him in a new identity post prison. So he's not going anywhere must be the current best guess (perhaps this is what Charlie meant by 'habilitation, not rehabilitation').

In this context, questions of 'revenge' are surely slightly irrelevant. It ain't revenge that going to keep him inside forever, it's the fact he is what the risk merchants call a Black Swan.

[dsquared]

It has, though, several hundred juveniles in secure psychiatric units.

this is either creepy or heartening, depending on whether Finland is one of those countries where the psychiatric units are worse than the prisons or vice versa.

[Chris Williams]

Not sure but I'll ask. Richard, you need 'Fort William, with vodka, and still ruled by the Tsars 100 years ago'.

[Barry Freed]

Solitary confinement, mentioned above, is a form of torture; possibly the most damaging there is. Ken MacLeod, IIRC, recently linked to a good article on this by Atul Gawande.

& I can't see any other country offering to resettle him in a new identity post prison

Saudi Arabia? But there's my revenge fantasy for you. (But only after the proper and thorough application of the Ludovico technique, as adumbrated by D^2 above.)

On a more serious note what CMcM said above. I can't imagine him being returned to society both for his own safety and society's. He'd need surveillance 24 hours a day.

BTW, I love Richard J's 5:17 PM uncannily precise anticipation of D^2's argument at 5:23 PM and cannot let it go unremarked; it was also brief, humorous, and executed with a deft turn of rhetorical technique (and one whose correct terminology I once knew, alas -Jinas in Arabic, IIRC) and with added schlachtbummler panache. Kudos.

[Gavin Bennett]

There was an excellent point about prisons in an Irish newspaper about ten years back. A journalist was covering the opening of a new modern prison wing. Everything was clean, uncrowded and organised. The prisoners were low risk, and nearing the end of their sentences. All very civilised: tea and biscuits.

But as the journalist said: he got to finish his tea and get in his car and go home. The prisoners would be escorted back to their clean and well appointed cells.

They couldn't go home.

And that, right there, was the punishment the state extracts from its criminals. You are taken back to your cell and someone locks the door.

I am not sure why it is we think we feel the need to treat people worse.

[Student]

the recidivism stat may be misleading. in the US mere marijuana possession even in liberal states is enough to land you in the clink. a better stat would be "violent recidivism" rates.

the #s imprisoned may also be misleading. given the fact it took 1.5 hours for police to even get close to the oslo terrorist during a not-so-subtle massacre, one should also consider the low rates being possibly due to police incompetence at apprehending suspects.

[Student]

btw OP,

FP isn't suggesting prisoners should be raped or beaten, but rather that pro recording studios, personal trainers and millionaire graffiti artist interior decorators might be a bit to decadent for max-sec inmates. the classic, LOOK AT AMERICAN PRISONS! is a weak rebuttal; the issue isn't comparing ridiculous jail systems, the issue is whether norways luxury resort prison is an efficient and moral use of tax and oil $. in many ways, these fuckers live better than i do, and i live pretty well in an oil rich western country.

[hellblazer]

"in many ways, these fuckers live better than i do, and i live pretty well in an oil rich western country."

In which case I suggest you go to Norway and get yourself banged up. You can probably still continue to leave peevish comments on blogs, if what you say is true.

[JamesP]

Norway's violent crime rate is also way below that of the US. The massacre took place on an island whose *name* means "outermost" island, 24 miles outside the city, with two local policeman available.

I'd say a 25% gap in recidivism *is* a good and moral use of tax and oil. It's also one on which Norwegians are pretty universally agreed. The difference between drug and violent recidivism rates in the states is about 5-6% (violence is lower).

[ejh]

It's also one on which Norwegians are pretty universally agreed.

Give them time, though. Fuck-youism is coming everywhere.

[ajay]

given the fact it took 1.5 hours for police to even get close to the oslo terrorist during a not-so-subtle massacre, one should also consider the low rates being possibly due to police incompetence at apprehending suspects.

How long did it take the police at Columbine High School to even get close to the shooters? Oh, that's right: one hour and fifty minutes. (Shooting started 11.19, first SWAT entered the building at 13.09.) And they waited until both shooters had finished and shot themselves before doing anything.

The big difference here is that some people - evil people - think that it is morally right to inflict pain on people who have done wrong. Not "right because it stops them committing further crimes", not "right because it acts as a deterrent", just right, because if you've done wrong you deserve pain, and inflicting it is a moral good. This sort of thinking has crept into the legal system, especially but not exclusively in the US, and it's actually counterproductive. As well as, like I say, evil.

[Chris Williams]

And the police at Columbine hadn't just had to cope with a bomb attack on the centre of government (perhaps to be followed up Mumbai-style? who could say).

As for the point "pretty universally agreed." that's not completely true, alas: Norway is indeed converging to the mean. For example, the statement "I have not been a victim of crime; crime is dropping in my area; crime is on the rise nationally" is held as true by a majority of Norwegians. That's another reason to admire their response (including the response of conservatives) to the murders: the 'it's all going to hell in a handbasket' discourse is present, but they are making strenuous efforts not to pick it up.

[Source: day job]

[ajay]

And the police at Columbine hadn't just had to cope with a bomb attack on the centre of government (perhaps to be followed up Mumbai-style? who could say).

Nor had they had to get hold of helicopters from the army to get to the scene. They just drove down the street.

the statement "I have not been a victim of crime; crime is dropping in my area; crime is on the rise nationally" is held as true by a majority of Norwegians.

And probably a majority of people in most Western countries, depressingly...

[Barry Freed]

Give them time, though. Fuck-youism is coming everywhere.

I'm not so sure anymore. Norwegians give me hope.

This sort of thinking has crept into the legal system, especially but not exclusively in the US, and it's actually counterproductive. As well as, like I say, evil.

I hope Cian is right on one of the other threads that religious discourse is the last place in the US where one can still make powerful arguments about poverty and against treating one's enemies evilly because I get nowhere making the argument about such policies being counterproductive despite my own belief in the power and ironclad tightness of such arguments. Fed by the like of Fox news and right wing talk radio the politics of ressentiment has just become so pervasive; the proverb "cut off one's nose to spite one's face" continually comes to mind. It's become the operative mode of so much American politics.

So Norwegians give me hope for the world, but over here? We fucked.

[ejh]

I think it's the basic ideological model in societies where consumerism is of great importance. Which was true of the US before anywhere else, but has become and is becoming everywhere else. You do things yourself, you desire things yourself, you work for things yourself, you pay for them yourself, and if other people complain then it's because they don't work as hard as you do.

Social being, social consciousness. Very hard to struggle against that.

[alle]

student - the issue is whether norways luxury resort prison is an efficient and moral use of tax and oil $

If the inmates can't escape and won't return to crime, I'd say that's about as cost-efficient as a penal facility can get. But you're right: obviously the moral thing to do would be to make it more dank and decrepit, introduce rats, organize the prisoners into gangs, and schedule a weekly rape session in the collective shower. I'm just afraid it would be too expensive.