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July 23, 2011

Comments

Chris Brooke

... Friedrich Hayek, John Laughland, Vaclav Klaus, Theodore Dalrymple, George Orwell, Friedrich Nietzsche...

Phil

It's always the quiet ones you have to watch.

Leonard Hatred

I was impressed (not in an admiring way) by this, from Simon Tisdall:

"Although an apparent racial supremacist and Islamophobe, he adopted the language of Muslim jihadists."

The example given?

"Before we can start our crusade we must do our duty by decimating cultural marxism," said a caption under the [youtube] video called Knights Templar 2083."

Me neither.

Alex

Hmm, would it help you to know that one of the most important of Osama bin Laden's statements is titled With a Band of Knights?

Alex

Hughes was a Yorkshireman, and the blood of the Danes runs thick in the veins of Yorkshire

Tell me he's not been quoting me...

Igor Belanov

"Especially in the North Riding — the closer one gets to Whitby, the more natural blond hair in evidence, and the more obvious the Danish place names."

I'm actually from quite close to Whitby, and the amount of blond hair in evidence is negligible. The place names are a different matter, but despite hailing from the area I would hesitate to describe it as the home of a master-race.

ajay

the blood of the Danes runs thick in the veins of Yorkshire

Sounds unhealthy. Yorkshiremen should start taking aspirin daily and eat less saturated fat.

Tell me he's not been quoting me...

I am trying to imagine an insane killer's manifesto based entirely on B&T comment threads.

Cian

We're fucked. I might as well just start getting my affairs in order and await the knock on the door.

ejh

I just have one caveat about this stuff, which is that we surely know that sooner or later, some lunatic on the Left will do something appalling and will support it with a manifesto quoting various thinkers on the Left.

It might be as well to think about how closely we want to tie the thinkers to the deed carried out in their name, before this happens and we find ourselves required to disassociate ourselves from X and to admit the fundamentally wicked and destructive nature of the writings of Y.

ejh

(That's not to say that I don't think there's a connection between certain people's ideas and acts such as the Norwegian massacres. I'd single out two connected themes: one of which would be the tone in which some people write, and the other would be the invocation of treachery.)

Phil

I'd go slightly further. On psychotic murderous Islamists, my line has always been that the psychotic murderousness is the problem, the Islamism being something we can oppose by normal political means. (Which, of course, doesn't mean "gently" or "by conciliation".) If Eurabia-bollocks now has an armed wing, that doesn't mean that the Eurabists have been - or should be - delegitimated as Preachers of Death.

Igor Belanov

I think the treachery aspect provides one reason why theis kind of homicidal lunacy is less likely on the Left. Nationalists of an extreme bent are always likely to find that those of their own country that disagree with them must obviously be betraying the nation and are a perfectly acceptable target. Thus Hitler's lack of sympathy with the German people at the end of the war because they'd failed to live up to his ideals of the German nation.

I think Far Left violence is always likely to be targeted on certain political and business figures, along the lines of Baader-Meinhof and the Red Brigades.

ajay

I think Far Left violence is always likely to be targeted on certain political and business figures, along the lines of Baader-Meinhof and the Red Brigades.

Igor: the Norwegian attacks, though, were aimed at political targets. He wasn't just trying to kill random Norwegians, he wanted to kill left-wingers.

Richard J

And even more specifically, people who could be potential future leaders of the left who could betray Western society to the Muslim hordes when the demographics are right.


Igor Belanov

A car bomb isn't a targeted killing, even if it does take place in a government quarter, neither is the mass murder of teenagers, irrespective of the fact that they were young 'social democrats'.

It is hard for me, at least, to imagine the nuttiest left-wing group killing a group of teenage Conservatives.

Richard J

Oh, I'm not justifying it in any way - I'm just trying to point out that it wasn't a random spasm of lunacy - there was a vile logic behind it.

It is hard for me, at least, to imagine the nuttiest left-wing group killing a group of teenage Conservatives

Quite, though, at this, I do have to bring up If...

ajay

Igor, the murderer said himself that he was aiming to kill specific people because of their political leanings.

It is hard for me, at least, to imagine the nuttiest left-wing group killing a group of teenage Conservatives.

Try during the French Revolution...

BenSix

The FARCing Columbians?

belle le triste

As the author of a book on if..., I am disinclined to approve the unqualified reading that its revolutionaries are in any non-fantasy sense "political"...

Also, doesn't Igor's ruling mark the IRA (Provisional) as rightwing by definition? I'm not entirely hostile to this argument, but I imagine it would be contested on and from the left...

Richard J

OT: It's been years since I saw If... (and back then, I was of an age and of a maturity with its protagonists), but I always recall it as coming across as something of a rather cathartic and personal work by Lindsay Anderson.

Igor Belanov

I'm not treating the IRA or ETA as left-wing movements, their main thrust has obviously been nationalistic and I think that they have only ever being considered left-wing due to the fact that their claims to be 'oppressed nations' came from the same sort of ideology as many third-world movements that did have a social edge to them at one time. I'm not suggesting that they're necessarily right-wing though, just that nationalism as a whole tends to put a stress on 'betrayal'.

ejh

Igor, the murderer said himself that he was aiming to kill specific people because of their political leanings.

Yes, but he did also kill, and seek to kill, a lot of people whose names he couldn't possibly have known.

There plainly are differences, and attempts to avoid this tend to be more than a bit strained.

Igor Belanov

"Igor, the murderer said himself that he was aiming to kill specific people because of their political leanings."

I don't suppose he was naming individual members of the Norwegian Labour Party's youth wing though, or the individuals that were killed in the car bombing. If any 'targeting' was involved, then it was focussing on a rather large group consisting of liberals and the Left.

CMcM

FFS sake, he's made a 12 min Youtube video and the Telegraph has posted it....

CMcM

FFS sake, he's made a 12 min Youtube video and the Telegraph has posted it....

Chris Brooke

Melanie Phillips

ejh

I can think of one possible counter-example, which would be the Weathermen attempting to (if I recall) nailbomb a dinner-dance of US soldiers. It's perhaps noteworthy that for some of those involved, this attempt led to a very swift re-examination of their methods.

One could also, I suppose, point to killings of clerics in Spain, but I think everything is different once a civil war is actually happening, as opposed to only existing in somebody's mind. I'm not aware that killings of random clerics (i.e. their names were not known to the assassins) were common before the coup, although I stand to be corrected.

Chris Brooke

Hmm. Not sure what went wrong there. I was trying to post this link:

http://melaniephillips.com/a-wider-pathology

Chris Williams

The RAF shooting the chauffeur. Chris B, any chance you can abstract that Mad Mel article? I spent yesterday on Harry's Place comments boxes, thus I feel unclean enough already, already.

belle le triste

The Weatherman nailbomb actually blew up its own makers, plus the NYC townhouse of the wealthy but unwitting parent of one of them: it never reached the dinner-dance. So while the very swift re-examination in the part of (some of) the WU is a fact, its source is anything but unambiguous.

CMcM

Gosh those Norwegian parents must be really upset with themselves, taking up all that air time and public sympathy that is so rightly due Ms.Phillips after such a tragedy. I mean, it's not everyday someone gets criticised by Sunny Hundal, now is it? If that's not a tragedy what is?

Chris Brooke

Key points from Melanie Phillips:

(i) the citations to my work are to stuff on fatherlessness & immigration, not to my writing on Islamisation.

(ii) I'm in very good company, along with "a vast number of mainstream writers and thinkers, including Bernard Lewis, Roger Scruton, Ibn Warraq, Mark Steyn, Theodore Dalrymple, Daniel Hannan, Diana West, Lars Hedegaard, Frank Field, Nicolas Soames, Keith Windschuttle, Edmund Burke, John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, Friedrich Hayek, Winston Churchill, Mahatma Ghandi, George Orwell and many others; indeed, it’s a roll call of western thinking and beyond, past and present".

(iii) Why am I being singled out?

(iv) "The supposed beliefs of the Norway massacre’s perpetrator has got the left in general wetting itself in delirium at this apparently heaven-sent opportunity to take down those who fight for life, liberty and western civilisation against those who would destroy it".

CMcM

Chris W: short Mad Mel version:

1. Hundal picks on me, even though lots of others were mentioned- what's that about, eh?eh?

2.Anyway, he was bonkers and no one can take his ideas seriously - you ask Mark Steyn

3. The Left are loving this - absolutely looving* it - 'cos they can take a pop at the forces of reason and light.('On Twitter and the net and in the liberal media, the forces of spite, malice and venom have been unleashed in a terrifying display of irrationality.')

4."Breivik may be one unhinged psychopath – but what is now erupting as a result of the Norway atrocity is the frenzy of a western culture that has lost its mind."


*Sorry, I got carried away with an image of Mad Mel as Kevin Keegan

Chris Williams

Well, I suppose if the Eurabia loons have decided that it's wrong, nay bad, nay evil, to draw guilt-by-association conclusions on the basis of the communique of the last atrocity, we can expect them to STFU next time some Islamist wacko sets himself on fire. No?

Chris Williams

PS, thanks for the fume cupboard job, lads.

ajay

Yes, but he did also kill, and seek to kill, a lot of people whose names he couldn't possibly have known.

This is reminding me inexorably of the line about "persuading perfectly civilised people to kill other people to whom they had not been formally introduced".

The Galleanists were a far-left group who were quite keen on mass killings of people whose names they couldn't possibly have known. (See: Buda's Wagon.)

alle

To be honest, I think a car bomb directed at the Norwegian PM's office and government buildings is about as targeted as it can ever get for an amateur terrorist. The summer camp is different, but there's been recent suggestions that he was originally planning to go after Gro Harlem Brundtland, the former Arbeiderpartiet PM. She visited Utoya just hours earlier, and he hated her passionately.

There's a particularly bizarre part of his manifesto where he sketches operations along the lines of a computer game, with three objectives and then a 'bonus' (he practised using first-person shooters). One example:

"I know there is a 80%+ chance I am going to die during the operation as I have no intention to surrender to them until I have completed all three primary objectives AND the bonus mission. When I initiate (providing I haven’t been apprehended before then), there is a 70% chance that I will complete the first objective, 40% for the second , 20% for the third and less than 5% chance that I will be able to complete the bonus mission."

Assuming he stuck to that plan, the targets might have been: 1. Bombing the gov, 2. Killing Brundtland or another top politican, 3. Murdering AUF kids, and then the bonus -- shooting his way out, or perhaps getting to speak to the public.

If it's the last, I'm happy to report that he's just been denied an open trial.

Barry Freed

Mad Mel's site seems to be down so I also thank you for those summaries.

It was my understanding that while the site of the car bombing was symbolic, tactically the bombing was itself a diversion from the main event: the extermination of the next generation of leaders of the Norwegian Labour Party.

If.... One of my favorite movies for many years. And I see my university has belle's book.


Igor Belanov

"The Galleanists were a far-left group who were quite keen on mass killings of people whose names they couldn't possibly have known. (See: Buda's Wagon.)"

I've not read Buda's Wagon, but on Wikipedia it suggests that the Galleanists were intending to target a hitlist of individual people and their victims were largely the usual unfortunate bystanders that tend to be at the receiving end. You can always keep searching for more examples if you want, if nitpicking is your leisure activity of choice. I'll concede that there are probably some Maoist groups in India and Nepal that might kill their own granny and a number of innocent people, if that helps to save you some effort.

bert

She's getting scrutiny anyway - it's crashed her site. But I get the sense that it's only going to nudge her further out on the ledge.

"obsession", "delirium", "irrationality", "the frenzy of a western culture that has lost its mind"

Victimhood for Mad Mel; for her critics, mental illness.

Alex

Fact: the most commonly cited English-language media group in Behring Breivik's manifesto is Telegraph News & Media (21 cites), followed by Daily Mail & General Trust (16 cites).

Crazy McBloggerpants is way ahead - Dan Hannan's Brussels Journal, frex, is over 100 when I got tired of counting, and I'm confident LGF, Malkin, Gates of Vienna, Jihadwatch will all break the century mark, in a strong innings for the Fighting Keyboarders' Incitement XI.

Phil

I was arguing about this with Chris Bertram on Twitter - anyone arguing that indiscriminate mass killing is the terrorism of the Right has to make an exception for the armed anarchists of the late C19/early C20, who were quite keen on killing unknown class enemies. But it is true that Left "terrorists" who kill people have generally known exactly who they were killing and exactly why, and been able to justify each killing individually; this is a long way from the Piazza Fontana model of "kill as many as possible, cause as much panic and confusion as possible".

However, there's a problem here, which is that this wasn't Breivik's MO either - he specifically targeted those kids because of what they were in his eyes. It's closer to the anarchist mad bomber tendency (for whom throwing a bomb in a theatre was OK, because anyone who was there was bound to be a bourgeois) - or, for that matter, to the jihadist "collective responsibility" argument, whereby anyone working in the Twin Towers (or travelling on the Tube) is ipso facto complicit in the crimes of imperialism.

Cian

It might be as well to think about how closely we want to tie the thinkers to the deed carried out in their name, before this happens and we find ourselves required to disassociate ourselves from X and to admit the fundamentally wicked and destructive nature of the writings of Y.

Except a lot of the people who write this stuff use a form of speech that is violent and extreme. I'm thinking Mad Mel, the Gates of Vienna people, and some of the others.

Secondly, there's a part of me that thinks if you trade in lies, distortion and propoganda (and I'm thinking of you, Mike Gove) - you're going to attract unbalanced nutters.

Incidentally, nobody picked up on the fact that it seems to have been being forced to do knitting at school that drove him over the edge. Unmanly apparently. If he hadn't killed 90 people, this guy would be a clown. And yet in a way, perhaps that's the best way to treat him. A whiny little clown.

Chris Brooke

Goodness. Good spot, Cian.

*** During my early youth while attending Smestad primary school in Oslo, Norway; I remember being forced to complete mandatory knitting and sewing courses. These courses were first implemented in various Western European countries as a result of Marxist revolution which started all the way back in the 1930s but had its climax around 1968. These mandatory knitting and sewing courses were implemented with the goal of deliberately contribute to feminise European boys in their insane quest to attempt to create the Marxist utopia consisting of “true equality between the sexes”. I remember I dreaded these courses as it felt very unnatural and was a complete waste of time. In retrospect, however, I am grateful for having received this insight into sewing and stitching as this knowledge is an essential skill when constructing and assembling modern ballistic armour… It is quite ironic and even hilarious when reflecting on the fact that a skill which was intended to feminize European boys can and will in fact be used to re-implement the patriarchy by overthrowing the Western European cultural Marxist/multiculturalist regimes. ***

CMcM

Dan Hodges.Christ on a bike.

Short version for Chris W: lefties are being opportunist - just grieve, why don'tcha? Enough with this 'solidarity' business, and the business of drawing political lessons from everything.

Chris Williams

Rather than be forever cast as the maiden aunt, too scared to read the words of the nasty men, I declared the fume cupboard closed pro tem and took a look myself.

Shorter Dan Hodges: "Man, you leftists are sick, making political points about this crime (except my mate Harris, who is OK), but here are some political points about the crime."

Barry Freed

Incidentally, nobody picked up on the fact that it seems to have been being forced to do knitting at school that drove him over the edge. Unmanly apparently.

If only he had plodded on ahead and, delving deeper still, learned the arcane and occult secrets of Viking knitting [see comments]as preserved by Himmler's SS he would not have felt so unmanly.

Ken MacLeod

Speaking of fume cupboard jobs ... I'm hoping someone here can save me a lot of tedious and depressing online research by telling me where this whole Eurabia-bollocks thing came from.

Am I right in thinking it's originally a Yank wingnut meme?

Barry Freed

No, not one of our own. I believe the neologism is Bat Ye'or's

CMcM

'Fjordman' (has anyone resolved whether he is actually Breivik yet?) claims the phrase developed out of an anti-American Gaullist diplomatic opening to the Arab world in the mid 1970s.

"The use of the term “Eurabia” was first introduced in the mid-1970s, as the title of a journal edited by the President of the Association for Franco-Arab Solidarity, Lucien Bitterlein, and published collaboratively by the Groupe d’Etudes sur le Moyen-Orient (Geneva), France-Pays Arabes (Paris), and the Middle East International (London). Their articles called for common Euro-Arab positions at every level. "

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