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August 10, 2011

Comments

Barry Freed

Fascinating.
It's hard to tell from across the pond right now but is it all done over there?

[BTW/FWIW It's been a long while since I'd been but I had a look at John Robb's blog to see if he'd have anything interesting to say on these matters as this kind of thing is his bread and butter. Not so much, and when did he get all survivalist? Weird.]

john b

I've blogged on this one.

bert

Barry, seems so.

I had dinner at my folks' last night. There were some dinner party culture warriors there who I've argued with before. Unprompted, they brought this up. It seems to be changing some minds - a small encouraging sign from a shitty situation.

Cian

Yeah that boy's father has been very impressive, as have many of the immigrant communities. The middle classes on the other hand... oh boy.

The only group of people who seem to have a handle both on what's going on, and why its happened, have been youth workers. The most patronising interviews I've seen/heard have been of... youth workers.

The police didn't handle the riots too badly, but then they were the spark in London, so fuck 'em. And seriously, when is somebody just going to shut the gun squad down.

ajay

Police not happy about being blamed by Cameron - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14501236

And seriously, when is somebody just going to shut the gun squad down.

Do you mean CO19, or Trident? Because Trident does rather a good job...

Cian

Co19. They're a bunch of idiots. With guns.

ajay

CO19 are (judging from second-hand reports, I've never actually seen them operate) worryingly inept and undertrained when it comes to handling and using firearms. Which is a problem for a specialist firearms unit. I don't know if the solution is to overhaul or to disband and start again.

Alex

I do think one of the MLAs should ask the Met just how many NDs they have a year for the last, say, five years and how that compares on a per-head basis to the Army.

ajay

That would be rather interesting - CO19 reputedly does have a bit of an ND problem. Also, how many rounds fired (in training) per year.

Cian

Move to Hackney and you'll see them. On your street if you're having a particularly bad night.

One thing that I do know about them is that when they know there is a gun involved (i.e. its been fired, or seen by reliable witnesses) they never, ever, go in. Which is one reason (of several) for thinking that this shooting was sheer bloody incompetence, and they didn't actually think he had a gun (or more relevantly was in a position to use it). Mind you, I'm not sure in what universe rushing a taxi occupied by an armed person is a good strategy.

Phil

NDs?

ajay

Move to Hackney and you'll see them. On your street if you're having a particularly bad night.

I have seen them, briefly, in passing; that's partly why I moved away from Hackney. Seeing one of them taking cover behind a large plate-glass window was a particularly special moment.

One thing that I do know about them is that when they know there is a gun involved (i.e. its been fired, or seen by reliable witnesses) they never, ever, go in.

Dunno where you got that from but it's not true. The Mark Saunders case, for example.

Barry Freed

NDs?

Negligent Discharge (of a firearm, natch).

MLAs?

Gareth Rees

"MLA" presumably means "London Assembly member".

(However, Wikipedia says "MLA" means Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and a member of the London Assembly is an "AM".)

ajay

Also, Cian, if they really didn't think he had a gun, what was CO19 doing there? The police don't normally bring CO19 along to arrest an unarmed man.

Cian

Mark Saunders was shot in a siege situation, where none of the police officers was in the line of sight. That was pretty standard for Hackney.

CO19 are involved where there is believed to be a possibility of a gun.

ajay

Mark Saunders was shot in a siege situation, where none of the police officers was in the line of sight.

They shot him without being in line of sight? Neat.

Jakob

I recall reading a memoir by an ex-Met firearms officer which made the claim that CO19 were among the most highly-skilled in the business precisely because they got so many call-outs, and so were always kept in practice. Given the ways in which Met shootings generally impinge upon my consciousness as almighty cock-ups, I'd tend towards the Schlachtenbummler view expressed here...

Jakob

ajay: Krummlauf, obv.

Cian

Okay you got me Ajay. I'll stay away until I've got more than 4 hours of sleep.

Chris

Jamie, how does one send you an email?

jamie

Chris: have emailed you.

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